On February 5., Pitzer College invited president and co-founder of the Muslim Public Affairs council, Salam Al-Marayati, and CEO of the New Israel Fund, Daniel Sokatch, to speak as part of Pitzer’s Presidential Initiative on Constructive Dialogue. The event was moderated by President Strom Thacker and was moved to Zoom from its original location in Benson Auditorium due to hazardous weather conditions.

The two speakers discussed their personal and professional friendship and focused the bulk of the conversation on “how we talk constructively, as a community and as individuals, about Palestine and Israel.” The speakers also discussed their views of the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) Movement and students’ ongoing calls on Pitzer to suspend their study abroad program at the University of Haifa.

The event was the second in the Presidential Initiative series created by Thacker last December which “focuses on how we in the Pitzer community and beyond can talk constructively about challenging issues,” Thacker wrote in an email to students on Feb. 5.

In the email, Thacker went on to describe why he felt it was important to bring Al-Marayati and Sokatch to campus.

“A primary purpose of today’s event is to bring together the perspectives of two people who have spent considerable amounts of time working on, thinking about, and talking constructively about the region, including the ongoing and acute conflict,” Thacker wrote. “It is not to advocate for or against one side or the other, but rather to help us find ways to come together to learn from each other and from considering different viewpoints and perspectives.”

During his introduction to the conversation, Thacker began by acknowledging neither speaker was from Israel or Palestine, but each held personal connections to the region.

Throughout the discussion, Al-Marayati and Sokatch responded to Thacker’s idea of mutual understanding, describing the importance of upholding multiple narratives and engaging in nuanced conversations with people that have differing opinions.

During the talk, Thacker asked the speakers their views on nonviolent protest to which Al-Marayati and Sokatch wholeheartedly expressed their support. Al-Marayati specifically named the BDS movement as the best way for students to enact change.

“I believe in the BDS movement,” Al-Marayati said. “Israel is the more powerful party in this. How do we influence it to end the occupation? We can’t influence it militarily … I publicly endorse the BDS program, because I believe that is a way to achieve peace by non violence resistance.”

Sokatch, meanwhile, explained that although he strongly supports the right to boycott as a means of nonviolent resistance, he does not endorse the BDS movement citing its ambiguous end goals.

“I do agree that it is a non violent movement and for that alone we need to protect and uphold people’s rights to it,” Sokatch said. “There are aspects of the program that I understand and support … There are many people that are afraid that what the BDS movement is calling for is an end to Jewish presence in Israel. I don’t believe that many people in that movement subscribe to that.”

In an interview with The Outback, Al-Marayati spoke on the way people may conflate BDS and antisemitism.

“We’re not supporting BDS, because we’re against Jews,” Al-Marayati said. “We’re supporting BDS because we want to end the war; we want to end the occupation … A lot of times we get charged with antisemitism and it’s become a political tactic … I’m not I’m not involved in this to undermine or eliminate or suppress Jewish voices. I would love to see more Jewish voices along with Muslim voices and Christian voices and just say enough war.”

Al-Marayati elaborated in an interview with The Outback on his support of BDS, extending it to the Suspend Pitzer Haifa movement. 

“I get my information from Omar Barghouti,” Al-Marayti said. “Omar founded BDS many years ago. And they give us the list of companies to boycott and these are basically companies that benefit from the occupation in the West Bank and the blockade on Gaza, and support the settler violence against Palestinians … then in terms of Haifa … he did put it on the list of the academic boycott.”

Suspend Pitzer Haifa is a campaign led by the 5C organization, Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP), which is seeking a conditional suspension of Pitzer’s study abroad program at the University of Haifa in Israel.

According to an SJP Instagram post from March 3, 2023, the University of Haifa excludes students of Palestinian ancestry and students who speak out for Palestinian justice. Additionally, the University has extensive ties to the Israeli military and is the site of Israeli Defense Force training programs.

A resolution to suspend the program was passed by Pitzer’s student senate by a vote of 34-1 on Feb. 11. A final decision will be made by Thacker on whether or not to continue the program.

During the talk on Monday evening, Sokatch expressed his hesitancy to stand behind Suspend Pitzer Haifa. He expanded on this in an interview with The Outback, advocating for academic institutions for their role in facilitating constructive dialogue.

“A lot of the people who are thinking about these things critically … are found in universities and colleges,” Sokatch said. “These things are gray, they’re nuanced. If one insists on a one size fits all answer, you’re not understanding the complexity.”

During both the talk and in his interview, Sokatch repeatedly underscored the obligation students have to educate themselves to understand the nuances within this conversation.

He stressed finding the humility to admit that there is always more to learn.

“I understand that the acquiring of knowledge now is so selective, that people are able to sort of build for themselves an echo chamber that just tends to reinforce their own perspective, and then they become intolerant of everyone,” Sokatch said. “Someone else who doesn’t agree with them isn’t just a person who may have a slightly different take … it’s [either] a person who’s supporting genocide or [is] an antisemite, and I reject that dichotomy.”

Sokatch specifically suggested reading both Al Jazeera, the independent Qatari-based news organization, and Haaretz, an independent paper based in Israel. He also referenced seeking out traditionally liberal and conservative American media with CNN and Fox News respectively.

However, in his interview Al-Marayati described his difficulties with trusting American news outlets to report fairly, advocating for finding truthful reporting through sources in the area such as Haaretz, and most significantly on social media.

“Social media gave us a different glimpse from the establishment media here,” Al-Marayati said. “That’s why many Americans are now more aware and are alarmed by what’s happening or are opposed to the Biden administration’s policy in Israel-Palestine and particularly … the genocide in Gaza.”

Still, similarly to Sokatch, he stressed the importance of listening to a range of sources, also describing the concept of an echo chamber.

“I make it a point that I’m not just looking at Palestinian social media sources, but also Israeli social media sources to get their perspective and read what the other side is saying as well,” Al-Marayati said. “Otherwise, you’re just talking within an echo chamber and you’re just talking to yourselves … You have to learn to make peace with your enemy. You don’t make peace with your friends. That’s why they’re already your friends.”

In discussing how to have these conversations, both speakers addressed the necessity in coming to an agreement on basic facts. A specific point of contention within the news media and on social media is whether Israel’s ongoing siege, which has killed over 28,000 people in Gaza and left over 67,500 wounded, should be labeled a genocide.

During the talk on Monday, Al-Marayati unequivocally referred to Israel’s assault on Gaza as a genocide. Meanwhile, when interviewed, Sokatch emphasized that genocide carries a legal objective definition, making clear he was in alignment with the rulings of the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

He raised a critical point that although he may have personal investment in a certain reality not being the case, the facts themselves are indisputable.

“None of us should feel we have the luxury to come up with our own definition of what is an international legal [term], and it’s there doesn’t matter what I want it to be or think it is, it’s there,” Sokatch said.

In his interview, Al-Marayati described similar feelings to Sokatch, explaining the difficulty in speaking on Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack on Israel, which killed approximately 1,200 people.

“It is [a] serious introspection on our respective souls and the soul of our country … to be critical, especially when people from our own religion are committing acts of violence against innocent civilians,” Al-Marayati said. “That’s what’s so important in creating this discourse — to have that overarching goal and that common ground … We’re all coming together to say how can we end this conflict?”

The concept of the overarching goal described by Al-Marayati was heavily emphasized by Sokatch as well.

“There’s not a Jewish or Israeli monolithic line here,” Sokatch said. “The same is true on the Palestinian side. There’s a multiplicity of opinions and lots of different camps. We’ve got to try to figure out a way to get beyond what feels terribly polarizing [in order] to understand what’s happening without denying the reality of what’s happening.”

Al-Marayati spoke on this point as well, highlighting the critical need for real, civil discourse to achieve justice.

“If we can get other Americans to start believing that there is this construct for civil dialogue and real discourse on the issue … we [can achieve] a more hopeful situation for future generations to take it from there and achieve peace that is concomitant with justice,” Al- Marayati said. “Right now, American public opinion is influenced by fear and we want it to be influenced by hope.

Daniel Sokatch’s daughter Zoe Sokatch PZ ’27 is a staff writer with The Outback.